2021 - All rights reserved. But there, the book is just full, both volumes, full of these remarkable stories like this. It's not enough to be given the treatment and see an improvement afterward. Elijah: I think this: the fact that there are fake miracles does not preclude the fact that there can be real miracles. James says, to refuse to put in the controls to avoid the biases we know we have, is a form of dogmatism -- we're looking for the result we already believe and we refuse to put in the methods that would allow us to isolate the different variables. He has a Ph.D. and M.A. The opportunity to serve as Case Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having me Scott. There was no medical help available in the village so she strapped the child to her back and ran to a nearby village where family friend [inaudible] was doing ministry. Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. Chris Gunderson who was born with an incurable disorder called Chronic Pseudo Obstruction Syndrome, which was cured by prayer. By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. Or in Matthew 12 and Luke 11 where is says, "If I by the finger of the Spirit of God drive out demons, the Kingdom of God has come upon you." You should watch Pinecreek's reaction here -- it pretty much sums it up. Second thing she noticed was her hands were open. Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. A nice illustration of Even Miracles Take A Little Time-the miracle. I mean there are, there's lots of Kingdom fortes that we're experiencing now. That is the definition of supernatural. Scott Rae: When we meet the Lord face to face. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. Scott Rae: Nabeel Qureshi, for the sake of our listeners who might not be aware of him, was one of the most, the most compelling apologists to Islam having converted to Christianity out of Islam himself. This doesn't affect the doctor reports, but the personal reports. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. Nine out of ten with prayer is the meaning of replicable, so I don't know what he really is thinking when he says miracles are not replicable. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. Thank you for being with us. I don't think they have established a real effect yet, so it's premature to speak about causes. because her twin didn't have it, it makes the original diagnosis questionable, the technology at the time is cited to be suboptimal in the paper, we can't tie the prayer specifically to the timeline, because of expectation effects and placebo effects, so causation is in doubt, she had a genuine improvement, but we have to ask which is more plausible, that there was a misdiagnosis (with the extra point about the twin sister) or the miracle played out in that way. And this time the doctor said she won't be coming back to the hospital. President Barbara R. Snyder is president of the Association of American Universities. Or even the most dramatic story I found from somebody that I or my wife knows, but this one was particularly mind blowing to me because Antoinette Malumbay was my mother-in-law and Terese is my sister-in-law. There is a second video interview with the woman herself that reports completely different medical history, and differs substantially from the details Keener gives. First of all, is that true? but there comes a point when enough is enough. February 4, 2019 8. You don't mix, say, corrected and uncorrected measurements in a timeline unless you provide both at every time point you have. It just really annoys me this is always conflated. Subsequent medical records document repeated substantial improvement. an 18-year-old female lost the majority of her central vision over the course of three months in 1959 and was later diagnosed with juvenile macular degeneration (JMD). The response is, essentially, that I am demanding too much evidence. In addition to Case Western Reserve, all So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. Christian news 1789; testimonies 1151; evangelism & outreach 1070; missions 993; Top Featured 862; encouragement 743; Tags. We wouldn't conclude that these things actually happened as reported, especially given the gaps in the timelines. Keener quotes a study that showed that half of the physicians studied said that they had seen what they consider to be miracles. of the members of the University Athletic Association are part of the AAU. Bizarrely, her calves were inflated and her once-atrophied muscles worked again and thats not all. Scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. You've written a lot of commentaries on the Gospels. Craig Keener: Which is her first language. What surprised you? She actually had to have a breathing tube because even her diaphragm didn't work on its own. None of these steps are taken in any of these cases. Also, while we have been generally optimistic that these miracle claims are not the result of deliberate fraud, one does have to consider that as a real possibility and find ways to rule it out. She never quotes her doctors about her condition, and provides no documentation whatsoever -- there is simply nothing to work with. And I talked with two of her doctors from the time and they both testified, "Yes, this is, there's no medical explanation for this." And also, a lot of my African friends say, "Look, life in Africa's a miracle. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. In this case, Shermer's argument is that there is a context (e.g. "This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy," Strobel said. Jonathan McLatchie vs Jonathan Pearce, documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search, this woman was healed of Parkinson's with "Energy Healing". You've done tremendous work on it that is a huge benefit to the Kingdom, not only with your technical biblical scholarship, but with this incredible stuff you've done on miracles. If something is real, when we can more carefully observe it, it becomes easier to see not harder. Craig thanks so much for being with us. This is the reason the specifics matter. After his conversion, Lee worked briefly as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and video productions. maybe we can study this" That's how a lot of science is done, it starts with "oh wow, that's weird" and then we can go and start testing it but theists don't seem to even want to take that next step. I commented about it like. As James says, "God really needs to up his game.". #religion Craig Keener: Yes. This effect has been seen a lot, but a good example is the Rendelsham Forest UFO sighting where there is a big difference between the original reports and the later reports or the Barney and Betty Hill case of alien abduction where one can track the contamination of the story to popular media depictions of aliens. Christians) than other groups. Could you imagine a similar claim written about, say, a homeopathic remedy for cancer? Charisma News - Informing believers with news from a Spirit-filled perspective, The Real-Life Miracle That Absolutely Shocked This Atheist-Turned-Evangelist, Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels, Atheist-Turned-Apologist Lee Strobel Offers Clear Evidence for the Supernatural, Atheist-Turned-Apologist: I Would Have Smirked That Easter Falls on April Fools' Day, Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. Strobel said that he has long believed that Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. This article wasoriginally published on Pure Flix Insider. At this point anyone with any reasonable familiarity with how to assess the quality of medical studies should see that this is a worthless study. She did it. [3] During Snyder's tenure as the university president, CWRU has overcome a $20 million budget deficit, increased fundraising by nearly $60 million, and increased research dollars by more than $15 million. These theists are in fact arguing for a lower level of evidence than we demand of the universities and pharmaceutical companies for their claims. It is a notable pattern for something to become less observable to more carefully you're able to observe it. And then if so, then how do you account for that? "So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.'". Sean McDowell, Timothy Pickavance, Scott RaeFebruary 27, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 16, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 09, 2023. False reporting? One can have compelling evidence even when a case could be rendered stronger with even more evidence. And the third thing she noticed was she was see it with her eyes. The protocol also calls for multiple interventions if initial treatments are not effective essentially the subjects receive repeat treatments as long as possible until they report a response. Case Western Reserves Keener doesn't explore alternative hypotheses and how he'd distinguish between them. I sort of think that these popular apologetics books will briefly touch on some of these tools that should be used but then that's a stand-in that makes people think that they're actually using them. also understands AAU and the broader university and scientific communities And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. It is a reasonable question to ask -- how much evidence is enough? It got to the point where she was dying. So where there's cutting edge Evangelism, God does more dramatic things. She is an elected member of the American Law Institute. I've written about this before about UFO claims, that they fall into two categories: There could potentially be a category 3 where the evidence does support the claim, but I have never seen it in any that I have personally investigated, either for UFO claims or for miracle claims. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. conversation that I was a part of here: Bad Apologetics Ep 20 - Miracles & even MORE even NEWER Resurrection evidence where we respond to the Unbelievable? At a minimum, one has to. Of course, it's possible her sight was perfect and declined in the 2 years between the "healing" and the measurement which would call into question the miraculous nature. He became a Christian in 1981 shortly after he decided to investigate Jesus and the Christian faith after his wife became a Christian. And by teacher time it was 200 pages I decided okay, this needs to be a separate book. God can heal us through medicine. What are some of the things that just sort of blew your mind that you researched, heard about, read about, came into first hand contact with as you explored this subject. Hey, thanks for listening. Get the news that matters most delivered directly to your inbox. She has extensive experience in reinforcing Case Western Reserves Medical science has come a long way recognizing the fact that humans are easily fooled, they see patterns and agency where there isn't any good evidence, and biology is messy enough that uncertainty is always something to consider. Barbara would always declare, "I love this Bible study! Lee Strobels Miracles talk (25 minute segment), Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambique, In conversation with Digital Gnosis (Nathan Ormond), Street Epistemology with Eddie (Deep Discussions), Thoughts on the Randal Rauser vs. Knowledge falls on a continuum. Regardless of the contents of the specific studies, this sort of fishing for positive results is thoroughly unscientific and casts significant doubt on any results from this institution. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." UFO sightings happened all the time in the 1970s and 1980s but suddenly drop when we put cameras in everyone's pocket? The dead will be raised." It isn't irrational to demand a higher-than-average standard for extraordinary claims, no matter what. Keener: in terms of anomalies whether they're anomalies or whether they're explainable in some way it helps if there's a pattern. They want the positive results and the authority that comes from the scientific enterprise, yet they aren't willing to put in the real work to earn that authority. It involves Barbara Snyder and took place nearly 30 years ago. Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? But Barbara Snyder, she had been dying from a severe form of Multiple Sclerosis. But we also had the medical documentation. She was doing her work in history. But there are other cases were the person had been dead for eight hours. So as you've cataloged these different stories and different accounts, what's been the sort of the breath of the geography that's been involved? And Jesus answers him with words from Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61 saying, "The disabled will walk. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. Well I shouldn't say everybody, but lots of people have love stories. The same thing occurs with UFO claims, homeopathy studies, and psychic abilities. Check out https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search to see the value of doing controlled studies in the field of medicine -- and where it goes wrong when people don't do this. A noted Christian scholar and ethicist, Scott is the author of such books as Moral Choices: An Introduction to Ethics; Business for the Common Good; and Beyond Integrity: A Judeo-Christian Approach to Business Ethics. successor. I also think that there is a two-stage process for investigating these and similar processes (i.e. And he said he prays for people here in the U.S., but it doesn't happen. But it's the same situation you have in the Gospels. Anyway, so it's the story of how we got together. placebo, memory contamination, fraud, spontaneous remission, etc) that will confound the effect so scientists have set up steps (e.g. And she'd also been teaching some at the University there, but she had to flee the capital sick with malaria. And even after CPR is stopped, there is an observed phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity after as much as 15 minutes, and his recovered after 10 minutes. She talked about when here daughter Terese was two years old that she cried out that she had been bitten by a snake and by the time her mother had got to her she found her not breathing. How can I help? President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will Snyder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. Craig Keener: Well I tried to get accounts from all over the world. It involves Barbara Snyder and took place nearly 30 years ago. But even with miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa. It makes it very hard to investigate these claims because you have to spend so much time trying to work out what is actually established. Doesn't seem to be anything other than perhaps theology. I misspoke in the episode for the next one, thinking the name was Barbara Snyder, but Barbara's case is an MS case. Prophetic messages from respected leaders & news of how God is moving throughout the world. record-breaking fundraising, and breakthroughs in research and academic I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. So if I'm dealing with historic, historiographic questions, historical reliability questions, I needed to deal with the issue of whether these kinds of things could happen. Make sure you see our stories daily directly to your inbox. Scott Rae: Yeah. Also, the theists show a profound lack of imagination in coming up with studies that can test the involvement of an agent, while ruling out other effects. A prolific author, he has written numerous bible commentaries and other works in biblical studies, in addition to his 2 volume work, Miracles. So the first part of the answer is sort of true but trivial and also not what they've been doing but then the second part contradicts that by saying "just assume that it's true anyway and start praying for people." In particular, it includes an interview with Barbara Snyder, who was instantaneously healed from advanced multiple sclerosis, as also attested by her two physicians. university facing significant debt, disaffected alumni, and deep concern about
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